Apologetics dialogue on Mary and the Rosary
Jason: Hey, over here.
Tom: oh, there you are, we should consider finding a new coffee shop, this place is getting too packed.
Jason: yeah, but I don’t mind, the hustle and bustle of the crowd is good white noise.
Tom: eh to each his own I guess. So what do you want to talk about today? The papacy, Mary? Or do you want to drill down to divine simplicity vs theistic personalism?
Jason: it’s 10 in the morning, it’s a tad too early to get that heady. Let’s do something simple.
Tom: well the simple things often end up being the most profound.
Jason: I’ve noticed the same, I think it has something to do with how we process our thoughts. We can enjoy a simple thing easier then trying to understand and enjoy a more complex thing.
Tom: I think it has to do with the nature of Truth, Our God is divinely simple, meaning not made up of parts and being truth itself we are better able to be close to God when pondering and enjoying the simple things like a rose or the songs of the birds.
Jason: or Prayer for example, a simple prayer like the one Jesus made in the garden “not my will but yours be done”.
Tom: I couldn’t agree more, the goal should be to have our wills align with the fathers will.
Jason: amen. You know this raises the question that I think we should pursue.
Tom: Well ask the question Jason, and by the grace of God we'll find the answer.
Jason: Why do you guys, Catholics, recite all these prayers instead of just praying from your heart?
Tom: we do pray from the heart, mental prayer is very important in the path to holiness. “In the first place, without mental prayer the soul is without light.” To quote a saint, and St. Augustine said “they who keep their eyes shut cannot see the way to their country” which reminds me of C.S Lewis’s dwarves in the last battle. The ones who were so taken in with themselves that they kept their eyes closed in Aslan’s country and could not see that they were home.
Jason: Well I’m glad you have prayer from the heart or mental prayer as you call it, but what about those prayer beads, and repeating the same prayer over and over again. Jesus said “But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do”.
Tom: yes but we’re not vainly repeating the same prayers thinking that by the number of prayers said. If our Lord was condemning repetition he wouldn’t have added that qualifier.
Jason: well sure, it’s not like it’s wrong to just say the our father prayer when you don’t know what to say. But things like the rosary in which you are just praying to Mary instead of God seems sacrilegious.
Tom: Do you not remember our conversation about prayer to the saints? We’re not praying “to” them in an act of worship we are praying to them asking them to join us in prayer.
Jason: oh yeah, I remember now but why do you devote all those prayers to Mary?
Tom: because she’s the mother of God, the mother of our savior, though her salvation was brought into the word. She loosened the knot of sin in obedience that Eve tied in disobedience” paraphrase the church father saint Irenaeus.
Jason: I get it, she’s a very important and holy woman, we should honor her but I still don’t get all the prayers you devote to her.
Tom: Let's look at it historically. Jesus came to fulfill the davidic kingdom right?
Jason: yes.
Tom: and in the Davidic kingdom, who was the queen? Remember Solomon had what, 700 wives? Did they have 700 queens.
Jason: no, I don’t suppose that would be an effective form of government.
Tom: haha absolutely not, could you imagine it, one queen says something another queen says the opposite just to spite her, it be a mess.
Jason: So then who was the queen?
Tom: It was the mother of the king, the Queen mother. You could petition the Queen mother to bring your requests to the king. And since Jesus is king of everything Mary would then be queen of everything. So when we bring our prayers and petitions to her we our asking the Mother of our savior to bring join in our prayers and bring them to our God. I’m trying to avoid saying Mary mother of God here because while I can defend it I don’t want us to go down the road just yet.
Jason: thank you for doing that, I’m sure we will have that conversation at some point. And I see your point but going to the queen makes sense when you don’t have direct access to the king. We do so it seems unnecessary to have this devotion to the mother when we can have this devotion to the father.
Tom: If you want to love Jesus, then one ought to love his mother whom he loved from the beginning. There are so many roads to go down on the greatness of our blessed Mother.
Jason: Our mother?
Tom: she’s the mother of the church, she gave birth to Christ and Christ’s mystical body is the church so Mary is our mother because we our part of the church.
Jason: ok, we’re getting off track here, back to prayer.
Tom: Sorry, let me outline was a Rosary is and we can go down it part by part and work through any objections you might have.
Jason: Sure
Tom: here is my rosary, so at the Cross, we say the apostle's Creed
“I believe in God,
the Father almighty,
Creator of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died and was buried;
he descended into hell;
on the third day he rose again from the dead;
he ascended into heaven,
and is seated at the right hand of God the Father almighty;
from there he will come to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting.
Amen.”
Jason: great, got it, so far so good.
Tom: this we say the our Father Prayer
Our Father, Who art in heaven,
Hallowed be Thy Name.
Thy Kingdom come.
Thy Will be done,
on earth as it is in Heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive those who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil. Amen.
Jason: I know that one.
Tom: then we say 3 Hail Marys for the 3 theological virtues of faith, hope and charity.
“Hail Mary full of Grace the lord be with thee, blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus. Holy Mary mother of God pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death”
Jason: See, that just seems like idolatry.
Tom: the first part is called the angelic salutation because it quotes Saint Gabriel when he appeared to Mary and said “And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favored, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.” Luke 1:28 and is the fruit of her womb not blessed?
Jason: obviously. So you’re just quoting scripture with the first part?
Tom: yes.
Jason: ok but the 2nd part, calling her the mother of God is wrong, she was the mother of Jesus.
Tom: Is Jesus not God?
Jason: he is, but Mary didn’t birth the God she birthed Jesus’s human nature.
Tom: So you're a Nestorian? You believe Christ was 2 separate persons, one divine and one human?
Jason: no, he was one person, both Fully God and fully man.
Tom: Right, so Mary was the mother of God?
Jason: She didn’t birth the Godhead.
Tom: Jesus is God, Jesus was born of Mary, Mary is the mother of Jesus who is God, so Mary is the mother of God. You can’t deny that without falling into some heresy about Christ.
Jason: I’m sure we could hash this part out for hours so let’s move on.
Tom: Sure, I’d love to go back to it later so we can really work through it, maybe next week?
Jason: yeah that should work, but back to the prayer you ask her to pray for you at the moment of our death. Why?
Tom: because at the moment of death, doubt can creep into the mind, doubt if God, of heaven or doubt of our salvation. We ask her to pray for us that in that moment of doubt, we will not give into fear and doubt God’s love.
Jason: that makes sense. Now what about the rest of the prayer?
Tom: well for each of these smaller beads we say a Hail Mary, there’s 10 in total. At the end of each 10, we say the Glory be prayer
“Glory be the father, the son, and the holy spirit, as it was, in the beginning, is now and ever Shall be world without end amen”
And the Fatima prayer
“Oh my Jesus forgive us our sins and save us from the fires of hell and lead all souls to heaven especially those in most need of thy mercy”
Jason: I don’t see anything wrong with those. Except that not everyone will be saved, if sounds like universalism
Tom: is it wrong to hope all will be saved? Is it wrong to pray that all souls hear and receive Christ?
Jason: Of course not, but by praying for it, it sounds like you are praying for universalism to be true.
Tom: I’m not, If I were I would be saying “God please let everyone into heaven even those who have rejected you” I’m not saying that I’m saying “Lead all souls to heaven, the first part of the pray is asking him to forgive us our sins and Save us from the fires of hell. It’s a prayer of Hope, a hope that everyone turns away from sin and towards God. I know it won’t happen but it’s not wrong to hope and pray that everyone is saved.
Jason: That’s fair. What’s the next part
Tom: So from the first Hail Mary on this bead to the Fatima prayer on this bead is called a decade. There are 5 decades in a rosary corresponding to the 5 mysteries we meditate on as we pray. They’re said after the Our Father prayer before each decade.
Jason: And what are those 5?
Tom: well there’s
Joyful Mysteries it includes
The Annunciation (Luke 1:26-38)
The Visitation (Luke 1;39-49, 57-60)
The Nativity (Luke 2:1, 3-6)
The Presentation of Jesus in the Temple (Luke 2:22-33)
The Finding of Jesus in the Temple (Luke 2:40-51)
Sorrowful Mysteries they include
The Agony in the Garden (Matthew 26:36-46)
The Scourging at the Pillar (John 18:28-40 and John 19:1)
The Crowning with Thorns (Mark 15:6-20)
The Carrying of the Cross (Luke 23:13-28)
The Crucifixion and Death of Jesus (Luke 23:33, 35-49)
Glorious Mysteries which has
The Resurrection (Matthew 28:1-10, 16-20)
The Ascension (Acts 1:1-11)
The Descent of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:1-8,12)
The Assumption of Mary (1 Corinthians 15:13-18)
The Coronation of Mary (Luke 1:46-49)
And the Luminous Mysteries and they’re
The Baptism of Jesus in the Jordan (Mark 1:1-5, 7-11)
The Wedding feast at Cana (John 2:1-11)
The Proclamation of the Kingdom (Mark 1:15, Mark 2:3-12, Luke 7:47-48 and John 20:22-23)
The Transfiguration(Matthew 17:1-9)
The Institution of the Eucharist at the Last Supper (Matthew 26:17-20, 26-30)
Each Rosary has 5 mysteries and we meditate on each one during the decade. There’s even the scriptural rosary where you read the corresponding Bible verse in reference to each mystery after the Our Father prayer.
Jason: Most of those sound fine to me. I have an issue with the Assumption of Mary but I don’t want us to go down the rabbit hole and end up arguing about everything related to Mary.
Tom: Yeah, next week we can sit down and hash out every detail of the Marian Dogmas.
Jason: Sure.
Tom: So any objections or questions so far?
Jason: I guess not. So you’re just quoting scripture for the first part, asking her to pray for you at death, and meditating on events that happened in the Bible. I still think it a little idolatrous but I can see why you don’t think that.
Tom: yeah when I first converted at all seemed like a bit much too but I’ve grown to love the rosary and our Blessed Mother.
Jason: Is that the whole rosary?
Tom: no, after the 5 decades we pray the hail Holy queen
“Hail, Holy Queen, Mother of Mercy,
our life, our sweetness, and our hope.
To thee do we cry,
poor banished children of Eve.
To thee do we send up our sighs,
mourning and weeping in this valley of tears.
Turn then, most gracious advocate,
thine eyes of mercy toward us,
and after this, our exile
show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
O clement, O loving,
O sweet Virgin Mary.”
And knowing you, I know what you’re going to object to, so let me just go ahead and respond-
Jason: oh you think you know me so well, well go on then, answer my objections before I make them
Tom: I’ve been your friend for years. I ought to know you well enough. You are going to object to the first part where we call her the mother of Mercy and our life. Am I wrong?
Jason: no, Tom, you’re right I was going to say
Tom: you were going to say “But Tom calling her the mother of Mercy and our life takes away from God who is mercy and gave us our life”
Jason: Yes, I was going to say that.
Tom: well Jason allow me to respond, Mary as I have already shown is the mother of Jesus who is God so she is literally the mother of mercy
Jason: fair enough, but calling her “our life” she didn’t birth us, she birthed Jesus and God gave us life.
Tom: True God created us and gave us our life. What did God say in the Garden of Eden when he told Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit?
Jason: He said, “You must not eat it or touch it, or you will die.”
Tom: right, Adam and Eve ate of the tree and dropped dead right on the spot
Jason: I know you’re building up to a point, you don’t have to walk me like a child to the point
Tom: I know, sorry I can sometimes act too much like Socrates in my questioning. They ate of the tree and fell into sin, being cast out of the garden. Before they ate of the tree they had no stain of sin and had perfect bodies. Our human nature was fallen because of the sun Adam and Eve brought into the world. We are all born now outside of the garden outside of God’s holiness. But through Jesus, we can be saved and have the indwelling of the holy spirt. We can have life everlasting though Jesus. But Jesus came to us through Mary. Our life was given to us by the life Mary gave to Jesus. The knot of sin Eve tied in disobedience Mary loosened in obedience and faith. Eve brought sin into the world Mary brought Life into the world.
Jason: ok, I retract by objection. I still think praying to Mary and the rosary is unnecessary but I see why you like it. If one accepts all the Marian dogmas you talk about, then I guess there’s nothing wrong with the rosary.
Tom: Well I guess we can end it here and next week I’ll try to explain all the Marian Dogmas so you can see the Rosary isn’t just ok, but a fantastic gift that we get to Pray.